Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s interview with RT TV Channel on the sidelines of the 26th St Petersburg International Economic Forum, St Petersburg, June 16, 2023

Question: The Western countries continue flooding Ukraine with weapons which are used against Russian territories by Ukrainian sabotage groups and pro-Ukrainian saboteurs. The ambassadors of the unfriendly nations have been summoned by the Foreign Ministry a number of times. However, there are talks about supplies of F-16s and maybe even more advanced missile systems. As you mentioned, F-16s are capable of carrying nuclear weapons. You called this an unacceptable escalation. Will Moscow adjust its approach to diplomatic relations with Western countries?

Sergey Lavrov: We can no longer rely on the promises and the agreements signed with the West which were presented as a foundation for developing constructive partnership. The relations between the Russian Federation and the West have not only radically changed, they have been halted in most areas for long periods. I don’t know when all this will change. The West has “lost” Russia at this point of history. I have no doubts whatsoever about it. The sooner we shed the remaining illusions, the better it will be for our own growth.  

President Putin has given a clear assessment of the current situation. He gave numerous examples of how, for many years after the Soviet Union ceased to exist, Russia was trying to build good relations with the West, even an allied relationship in some areas. However, everything turned to dust because the West was not prepared for equal cooperation. The West sees us as just a territory to be explored and utilised in a colonial sense so as to live at the expense of others. We have resources. The West was providing us with technologies. We were supposed to give the West cheap oil, gas and other mineral resources we are rich in, whereas they would provide us with everything for cultural life and the growth of the automobile industry. All that is in the past now.  

Agreements that guaranteed strategic stability since the Soviet times have been destroyed: the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty, the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty and the Treaty on Open Skies. And now we have been compelled to suspend the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty. The West, and in particular the Americans, have undermined the fundamental principles this treaty was based on – the principle of equality, partnership, respect and indivisible security as the basis of our relations. The arms reduction and control procedures were based on that foundation. Now all that is gone. We are fully aware of the need to rely exclusively on ourselves and promote relations only with those countries which are open to equitable and mutually beneficial cooperation where nobody leads and nobody is led.

What we are seeing in the West these days is that the Anglo-Saxons and the rest of the collective West have designed, to put it simply, and are using the current situation, the war they unleashed against the Russian Federation with the use of Ukraine, for the sole purpose of removing competitors. They perceive both us and China as competitors. Their doctrinal documents clearly state that. But the Anglo-Saxons are also removing continental Europe as a competitor. This is clear to everyone. In Germany, developments in the economy and the social sphere are grim, and many other countries are in no better shape. The US benefits the most, and the UK is always by its side, helping the US reach its selfish goals.  

They are pouring modern weapons, long-range missile systems into Ukraine and they are used not only to reach our territories but also to attack us. And now there is talk of F-16 jets which can actually be equipped to carry nuclear weapons. We have stated this publicly. We voiced our strongest concern at the meeting of experts of the Nuclear Five nations at the UN Security Council. The Americans tried to downplay the issue saying, do you really think we will give Ukraine jets carrying nuclear weapons? We said that we are not even thinking. Our systems monitoring those jets will not be able to tell a plane carrying nuclear weapons from the one that is not carrying them. To answer your question about our response, it will be made by the military. They know what is to be done.  

Question: Will it be a military-technical response? You said that diplomatic and political relations have practically reached the bottom, therefore is the reaction expected only from the military?

Sergey Lavrov: F-16s are a product of military technology, so naturally, if we see these planes flying over Ukraine and posing a threat to us, we will also give a military-technological response.

Question: Can the Foreign Ministry start talks with Kiev, given the new geopolitical realities? What kind of realities are these and what place does Russia occupy in them?

Sergey Lavrov: This is a geopolitical war unleashed against us. We have just said that they are trying to eliminate rivals. This is precisely how we regard this situation. This situation can only reach a conclusion based on an understanding that this is a geopolitical conflict. The West’s attempt to try and retain its position of hegemony via the “agony of the epoch,” when it was the dominant force, has failed. We are all aware of that.

Now let’s see what kind of realities they will be on the ground. They are being determined by the processes that are in progress there, primarily the referendums held in the four new territories and the decisions taken somewhat later by the leadership of the Russian Federation and this country’s Federal Assembly. This is the first point.

Let me remind you about the realities on the ground. In July 2022, when President of Russia Vladimir Putin was asked whether Russia was ready for talks, he made it clear that we had never refused to hold peace talks, but those who refused to negotiate should know that the longer they procrastinated, the more difficult it will be for them to come to terms with us. This is the conceptual framework within which we now exist.

In the larger scheme of things, speaking geopolitically, this will mean the need to resolve the problem of security guarantees. We will not be prepared to build up these guarantees based on yet another batch of promises and documents that the West might offer. We must guarantee our security on our own.

The global processes are a second and broader geopolitical cross-section. The US-led West has imposed globalisation on everyone with tools that are still controlled by the United States and its closest allies including transaction processes and shipping insurance. This kind of globalisation is over. The dominant trend today is the awareness of the need to regionalise the development processes. This includes the SCO and, in a wider sense, the Greater Eurasian Partnership, which President Vladimir Putin mentioned at the Russia-ASEAN Summit a few years ago. He suggested that all countries on our common huge continent use the God- and nature-given relative advantages to develop mutually beneficial logistical, financial and transport chains. There are stable relations between the secretariats and government delegations within the EAEU, the SCO, and ASEAN.

There are projects acquiring continent-wide importance, including one based on the agreement to harmonise Russia’s integration plans and China’s Belt and Road initiative, signed between the EAEU and the PRC. We have always stressed that we are leaving the door open to all countries on the Eurasian continent, including the European countries that become conscious of their advantage from relying on natural processes rather than the artificial schemes that the West is creating to the detriment of its allies that it has involved in ideological and geopolitical games. The world will be different. The processes that have begun developing in a particularly dramatic way in the context of the West’s reaction to our special military operation, whereby we took up the challenge thrown to us, clearly indicate that self-reliance and independence from any West-related world schemes are emerging as the main trend.  

Question: Let's take our relations with the Arab countries to discuss the restructuring of the mechanisms that underlie the international order (you used the term “new world.”) Could you comment on the Russian-Algerian summit which was an important event and the meeting between President Putin and President Tebboune? Also, what is your take on UAE President Mohammed bin Zayed Al Nahyan’s visit and participation in SPIEF 2023?

Sergey Lavrov: This reflects natural processes that have been underway for many years now. Russia-Arab world relations can be described as long-standing, good and close cooperation. The Arab countries remember very well our country’s role in liberating them from colonial oppression, assisting them in developing their statehood and creating the foundations of their economy and defence capability.

Our relations with Algeria are a case in point. We helped our Algerian friends from day one of their struggle for independence. Yesterday, at a meeting between our presidents, I spoke with my colleague, Foreign Minister Sabri Boukadoum. He talked about the time when the French withdrew from that country after signing a relevant agreement in 1962, leaving behind countless numbers of minefields and refusing to provide minefield maps. Risking their lives, the Soviet sappers cleared these minefields as part of providing free assistance to our friends. A number of sappers lost their lives in the process. Things like that cannot be forgotten.

Yesterday, on the sidelines of this summit, I was asked about what I thought about President Macron stating on several occasions in different circumstances that he was concerned about Russia developing economic and defence cooperation with African and Arab countries, and that this was “wrong.” I reminded the audience of the fact that when recently visiting Algeria, Macron publicly refused to apologise for the colonial exploitation of this country and its people that lasted long years. These colonial manners and instincts are tenacious. Remember Josep Borrell saying Europe was a blooming “garden” surrounded by a “jungle” populated by savages.

Our traditions have a long and glorious track record. Those who thought it could be forgotten are seriously mistaken. People remember the good that our country has done for them, appreciate it and are ready to build a new partnership on this historical foundation. Algeria is one of our main economic partners in Africa and ranks third among African countries. It is our leading partner in defence cooperation, and interest in continuing it was confirmed during President Tebboune’s visit. This is a natural process.

Our relations with the UAE are not as long. We established them at a time where our relations with other Arab countries were at an advanced stage. At some point, we had ideological differences with Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. We do not have any now. The relations between Russia and the Gulf countries relations are based on pragmatism and clearly understood mutual benefit, as well as a willingness to reconcile interests and look for solutions that will meet both partners’ interests.

The UAE is our number one partner in terms of mutual trade growth rates and trade numbers. We have numerous investment plans. They are interested in investing in the North-South transport corridor project, which will provide a competitive route and the world's shortest, an alternative to the Suez Canal, from the Baltic Sea to the Indian Ocean. This project holds many specific promises.

Geopolitically, the Arab world is aware of its role in the process of forming a multipolar world and claims to be one of the largest, strongest and most influential centres of the future international order.

Our relations with the League of Arab States and with the Gulf Cooperation Council go back a long time. In both cases, we operate through ministerial forums. The next ministerial meeting with the GCC will take place in Russia a month from now. You are welcome to attend and cover it.

Question: Given the importance that the UAE and other Gulf countries attach to promoting relations with Russia, do you observe the habitual pressure policies from the Anglo-Saxons, primarily the US and UK), with regard to these friendly countries and attempts to make them withdraw from or refuse to participate in the processes of establishing new partnerships or contacts, or strengthening the existing contacts? Is this pressure being exerted? 

Sergey Lavrov: Of course, it is! They are far from the only countries exposed to pressure. The Anglo-Saxons and their ilk are bringing pressure to bear across the board, including on our closest CSTO allies. The Gulf Arab countries are not an exception. I would say that the Western methods are boorish. I cannot think of another word. When they start talking about their “rules” that the world order should be based on, they mean solely their diktat, colonial instincts, “living at the expense of others,” and nothing else.

They keep saying that in Ukraine they are defending democracy and the values of the Western civilisation. First, if they perceive things this way, all I can conclude is that they are still true to their Nazi views. Saying that Ukraine is where the Western civilisation’s values are being defended is the same as asserting Nazism as their modus vivendi.

They speak about democracy only when they preach to others how they should live their lives: “You must hold elections,” or “The military must hand power over to a civilian government,” or “You must invite such and such monitors,” etc. But when democracy on the international scene is mentioned, the West switches to reverse and refuses to discuss the topic. This is indicative because, as I have repeatedly said, the UN Charter makes it incumbent on each state to respect the sovereign equality of all states. The West does not do that.   

Let us take the specific geopolitical clash resulting from a war the West has unleashed against us. President of Russia Vladimir Putin and your humble servant warned for years after the 2014 coup in Ukraine that Russia’s security and the rights of Russian speakers in Ukraine must be guaranteed, ensured and respected. No one wished to listen to us. These rights were being crushed, with laws passed to enable this. Each time, we called for implementing the Minsk agreements and cautioned everyone. In other words, we repeatedly and in a detailed manner presented our point of view to the world. Moreover, President of Russia Vladimir Putin made a special statement shortly before the special military operation. We offered our reasons and explained why we had no other choice. The West condemned our actions. Perhaps all other watchers of these processes should be respected in the sense that they have the full right to form their own opinion and formulate their position. The only thing we do is to explain our motives and actions. The West explains nothing. They just send their emissaries to all capitals, be it Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Central Asia, Africa, or Latin America, and urge all governments to condemn Russia, join the sanctions, and vote the way they are told by the West. This is a case of disrespect for the states that would like to look around and understand what consequences this or that expression of their opinion will entail. There is pressure. But the fact that practically not a single state from the Global Majority and Global South has joined the sanctions shows that these pressure attempts are yielding no result.

Question: You clearly stated on an earlier occasion that Russia was grateful to African countries for not joining the Russophobic crusade. What is Russia giving the Africans in return? Is there a clear strategy for promoting new contacts?

Sergey Lavrov: Following the first Russia-Africa summit which took place in October 2019 in Sochi, we created a special committee that is in charge of implementing the summit’s agreements. There is also an association for economic cooperation with African countries. We joined the African Export-Import Bank. There are a number of promising projects that we will start working on shortly.

It is not about what we give in return. This is not the right way to frame the question. In one-on-one conversations, my friends are talking about the West blackmailing them and twisting their arms telling them to stop talking and trading with us. To my question about what they are offered in return they say that they are told they will not get punished. This is how things are with them. In our case, everything must be mutually beneficial and mutually interesting.  Our relations with the Africans and our other partners are not based on money. What we are trying to do is identify projects that meet the interests of both sides. Usually, the countries that encourage our businesses to come over have a list of economic sectors where they would like to see our investment go. Our economic operators reach out to their counterparts in Africa and agree on terms and conditions. This is a healthy process which balances the interests of all partners and participants.

Question: I have a question about new major players in BRICS seen through the Arab lens. A number of Arab countries, among them Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, Egypt and even Türkiye, are willing to join this group. When, do you think, can these countries become full-fledged BRICS members? If it comes to pass, how will they contribute to fortifying BRICS’ positions and prospects?

Sergey Lavrov: Their contribution is clear. BRICS will expand, with the countries representing major Arab, or Islamic civilisation in a broader sense, joining it. This will strengthen the multipolar principles that we are discussing now and that are objectively taking shape.

Speaking of specific candidates, all of them - Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Algeria, and Egypt - are strong applicants. All of them, to a certain extent, are leaders of the Arab and Islamic world. They would, undoubtedly, enhance BRICS. We are prepared to move quickly to find a solution. There is nothing to argue about. Considering the weight of each country, their right to be represented at the global level is beyond doubt.

There is a consensus rule in BRICS, though.  Keeping in mind the requests that you mentioned and requests coming from other continents, BRICS has launched a process for coordinating positions regarding expansion. At the summit in South Africa in August, the leaders will listen to what experts have to say about the path forward on this matter. This is clearly a delicate issue, no question about it. The reputation of a state is at stake. If a country applies and does not receive a response, it will not be perceived very positively. We understand this well. We are in favour of seeing BRICS expand.