FIRST DEPUTY MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS OF RUSSIA VALERY LOSHCHININ'S INTERVIEW WITH THE MAYAK RADIO COMPANY

Valery Loshchinin graduated from the Belorussian Lenin State University and the Diplomatic Academy of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Has a command of the English and French languages. Worked as Deputy Permanent Representative of the USSR (Russia) at the International Organizations in Geneva, and headed the Second European Department. Held the post of Russian Ambassador to Belorus. Has been Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Russia since 2001.

Russia and the Near Abroad: Interests, Problems, Dynamics

How is Russia going to build relations with the near abroad countries? What will be undertaken to uphold the rights of compatriots? State Secretary and First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Valery Vasilyevich Loshchinin talked about this in a live Mayak broadcast.

For a long time we in our program did not speak about foreign policy. And today we have exactly decided to turn to these problems. The focus of the talk will be on Russian relations with our neighbors - the near abroad countries. We're broadcasting live. And our guest in the studio is State Secretary and First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of Russia Valery Loshchinin.

"I think that the topic of our conversation should interest many people. Why was it that we invited precisely you? What did we proceed from? First, it is parts of one common country, and we are all tied by a common destiny and by common prospects. Second, very many Russians and citizens of Russia and not citizens of Russia and Russian speakers live in the neighboring countries. And third, one gets the impression that as Russia is currently getting on its feet, is beginning to uphold its interests, we're beginning to be confronted with unpleasant new problems along the perimeter on the sly. In one country something happens, in another country something happens. So my first question is as follows: What strategy in the near abroad is a priority for the country? On what is the ministry and our foreign policy leadership laying the main emphasis?"

Loshchinin: First, I agree with your assessments. And must stress that there are several priorities in the foreign policy line of Russia. But the most important one of them was, remains and will be in the foreseeable future - our relationships with the closest neighbors, with the CIS countries. This is only natural, since our chief vital interests in the fields of the economy, defense, security, the ensuring of citizens' rights, and the support of our compatriots are concentrated in the CIS space. In a word, good neighborly relations with the near abroad countries is a very important factor of the stability of Russia itself. Characteristically, when concluding agreements and treaties with our CIS and near abroad partners we write down a fundamentally important provision on strategic partnership. And this means that the interests which Russia has in the near abroad have something in common with the opposite side, in relation to Russia. And this partnership is based on the commonality of interests which both Russia and our partners have. Therefore the commonality of interests ensures the stability of these relations too.

What are the CIS countries to us? We began the year with the visit of President Putin to Kazakhstan. In the near future the visit of Vladimir Vladimirovich to Kiyv is being expected. Right yesterday Prime Minister of Belarus Sidorsky was in Moscow; he met with our Prime Minister. At the beginning of February we expect the visit of Ilham Aliyev, the President of Azerbaijan; preparations now being in full swing. Even such a piquant thing I can tell you, piquant in the sense that this is a new scheme of our coordination and cooperation in foreign policy affairs. At the start, at the very start of February a joint collegium meeting of the Foreign Ministries of Russia and Belarus will be held. There is an agenda, a range of questions which we will discuss. This attests to the high level of not only integrationary, but also of political aspirations and our joint work.

With regard to the economy. Last year is, let us thus say, indicative in all respects. Because many accretions of an adverse character are now left somewhere behind to a significant extent, we are surmounting them. In respect of the CIS countries as a whole - Russian trade with these countries grew by 30-35 percent. This is an extremely high achievement.

Listener: Hello. I am Nikolai Leonidovich Tugaryov, a Muscovite, deputy editor-in-chief of the magazine Moscow and Muscovites. My question is as follows. I was recently sending letters to Moldova, and they told me: same payment as with the far abroad, as with France, with the United States. Furthermore, friends are now living with me, they have come from Moldova, migrants; nowhere are they being taken on. Ukrainians, Belarusians are being taken on, but as soon as they hear a Moldovan - no, we don't take. Now, how are such relations with Moldova to be explained?

Loshchinin: You have to apply to the Ministry of Communications: how, in what way they have established coordination and cooperation with our near abroad, including with respect to payment for mailings and with regard to cooperation in the postal and telegraph services, and so on. I cannot answer if this is really so or not. But in principle there are ever more signs that both the independence of these states and these countries are themselves interested in increasing certain tariffs, it is a mutual process of this kind.

"May I bring a question nearer to your terms of reference? You know that not so long ago an agreement was practically prepared between Moldova and Transnistria through the mediation and with the active role of Russia; it was all ready for signing, and at the last moment the Moldovan side suspended this process, referring to its dialogue with the OSCE. Have we begun to treat Moldova worse for that? And won't this reflect on attitudes to the citizens of Moldova who are arriving here to earn for a piece of bread?"

Loshchinin: Yuly Alexandrovich, I in passing will first answer the questions of Nikolai Leonidovich. I do not think there is any special attitude to Belorusians and Ukrainians and that against this background there's also a special attitude to Moldovans. There are problems connected to the entire labor migration at this moment, in the sense that after all the people arriving for earnings in Russia should register themselves. And not infrequent are the instances when these labor people, craftsmen, specialists try to evade registration so as not to pay taxes, so as to be as far away from the authorities as possible, and so on. In this sense the problem arises not only with Moldovans. With Belarus there is no such problem, because we are the Union State. And with Tajikistan, with Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan -- all this does exist.

"It must all be according to the law, and first and foremost, that people should not become the slaves of certain criminal businessmen, should not be left without civil rights."

Loshchinin: Yes. And not just that. But of course, registration is also the protection of their rights and interests, this is very important and essential and I do hope that understanding all this will increasingly grow. Now as to the memorandum. Indeed, it was all ready for signing, this event was to have taken place at the end of November. At the very last moment under the pressure of certain forces our Moldovan friends suggested postponing the signing of this document. The problem is there, because for the first time both Chisinau and Tiraspol had managed to affix their signatures to this document, it was paraphed by the President of Moldova and the leader of Transnistria alike. At the most important moment our OSCE partners did not like something. We consider that this was a mistake on the part of the OSCE, because in the final analysis it so turns out that we are having to work anew now.

The memorandum was the product of very serious and profound work with the participation of the Russian side. You remember, the representative of Russia, Dmitry Nikolayevich Kozak, was working there. Enormous work was done and I think that it remains in effect, it has a fundamental significance and very soon we shall proceed with this.

Listener: I am Georgy Zabaron. Really, the only one of the republics which offers union, and we still cannot unite with Belarus - isn't that criminal on the part of the authorities? Because it is primarily we who should make concessions, as this is but a small republic in comparison with us.

Loshchinin: I must say that indeed relations between Russia and Belarus are on the highest level. Some problems periodically occur, though - the problems of growth. But not with any other one of the CIS countries do we have such relations. Now, as regards union. The question just isn't such, and the Belarusian side itself isn't eager for this. And that's the big point. The Belarusian side speaks of the sovereignty and independence and cooperation of the two states, of the Union State in which the two states will exist. And we are now working on just this in terms of the preparation of a constitutional act to define the terms of reference of both the sovereign states, and of this entity, the Union State, as well. So that we're moving forward at a fairly fast pace.

Listener: Hello, Valery Vasilyevich. I am from Karachev, Bryansk Region - Gennady Khudyberdiyevich. The first question. Valery Vasilyevich, we are talking a great deal about the deepening of strategic cooperation, of the partnership with the CIS countries, but there is absolutely nothing about the near abroad in the media for some reason. This is the first point. And the second question. What is the Russian Foreign Ministry doing with regard to the gross violation of human rights in Turkmenistan?

Loshchinin: As to human rights violations in Turkmenistan, this is exactly the result of the work of the media to a certain extent. And our people are really informed about the certain problems which have taken shape in Turkmenistan.

"You know, bitter letters are coming in to us as well."

Loshchinin: Yes, we are also receiving complaints. Therefore I must say that this topic draws a lot of our attention at the Foreign Ministry as well, and we are working with other agencies for the purpose of resolving the situation, I would thus say. I must tell you that as the result of the measures taken, there have been definite shifts for eight months now. Anyway, the status of officially Russian citizens and those who have dual citizenship is in no way being infringed. Moreover, quite recently the Turkmen authorities were forced to abandon the so called system of exit visas. That is, in order to leave Turkmenistan, it was yet necessary to obtain an appropriate permission. Now this topic has been lifted off the agenda. We have established a joint Turkmenistan-Russian commission, which the Foreign Minister of Turkmenistan heads on the one part, and on our part - a Deputy Foreign Minister. I shall say: the problem is there, the issues exist, they affect not only our people in Turkmenistan, but also in other countries. In respect of strategic cooperation, I must say that here too one can make if not a complaint against the media then anyway... In the media there are appearing materials, and quite a few of them, on the CIS countries, but, unfortunately, more often than not they bear a negative aspect. And now in this regard I would like to call upon the media more objectively, more precisely and, if you will, more honestly to reflect the state of affairs in our relations.

"You know I agree with the listener that our Russian media are devoting insufficient attention to this topic - well, except where that theme bears a special character, as, say, with Georgia. All these matters are connected and we shall have a talk about them later on. But from Mayak I will nevertheless ward off this reproach, Mayak is paying to this topic sufficient attention I think. A call. You're welcome."

Listener: Good afternoon, Valery Vasilyevich. Pavel Teodoran is bothering you, from the town of Zaozersk, Murmansk Region. Now, what is my situation? I would like to acquire Russian citizenship. We applied to the local Interior Ministry, and they told us, explanations to the law amendments on admission to Russian citizenship still are not available, and that we shouldn't bother them until February.

"Thank you for the question. I want to add. Here's Mikhail on the Internet. A similar situation. His parents have come to him, they are 80 years old, and the father is a Great Patriotic War invalid. And they had also hoped for these amendments to the law on citizenship that have been passed, but they were told that there were no instructions thus far, which had to be waited for, and that for the present the question could not be resolved. It comes to an insult, moreover; the old people are more than 80, and they have already twice taken AIDS tests. Well, I understand that a procedure is a procedure, but..."

Loshchinin: Yes, moreover, it quite often happens that while some documents are being collected, others are already becoming out of date, and as a result a lot of problems have been arising with the solution of this task. I would like to divide this topic into two parts. First of all, all that occurs in this country, within Russia, as regards acquiring citizenship - this has to be solved through the bodies of the Interior Ministry. Indeed, substantial amendments and modifications were introduced to the federal law on November 11. And if until now...

"Excuse me, but we are now talking about those who from the near abroad countries would like to get Russian citizenship."

Loshchinin: And who are living right now on the territory of Russia. The 2002 law records a residential qualification, how many years are needed, a residence permit and the like, and only when you get a residence permit can you raise the question of acquiring citizenship. Now this theme is removed. And if some interior bodies on the vast expanses of our country do not yet have the explanation, now your broadcast, I hope, will help to take action so that the relevant explanations reach the interior bodies.

"And to you I must voice one reproach on behalf of Mikhail Glukhikh on the Internet. He complains that there is very little information from Russia and the Russian consulates, diplomatic missions and information centers about how and what has to be done. And he also says, now those who are going to Germany very quickly get all the necessary documents, without any problems whatsoever. And we cannot get not only legal assistance, but even elementary advice."

Loshchinin: In our consular agencies abroad?

"Yes. Evidently some information centers are needed. He says that some Slavic funds are trying to take up this matter, but for the most part they only collect the money and there's an end to it."

Loshchinin: We accept, accept the remark.

Listener: Good afternoon. Sergey Viktorovich Voronin, a Muscovite. Valery Vasilyevich, I have a question concerning Georgia. Now it is an open secret that in Georgia ultranationalists have come to power and, so to speak, with the help of the Americans. Well, considering that Berezovsky came there, and that he was conducting separate negotiations. How will our Foreign Ministry be building relations with that state now? Thanks.

"Thank you for the question. Especially as such questions are many and the topic is very important. Please."

Loshchinin: Topic important and relevant. We also, like many of our citizens, watched the events that took place in Georgia in November-December, and now the presidential elections there.

"Not only watched, but also held consultations with the leaders of the autonomies."

Loshchinin: It is a question not so much of the consultations, as of the certain concern the leaders of the autonomies of Georgia felt as to how the events would develop. By the way, now the assessments of our listener Sergey Viktorovich indicate that he senses radical elements concerning the position of the new leadership. Indeed, they are present in regard to the statement. We know that external forces also took part in the events which were then occurring in Tbilisi especially, in particular. But the question is about something else. The elections took place, the president gained 96 percent of the votes cast. This result, let us say bluntly, is unusual for elections in democratic countries. But that's the way it worked out. Now there are several explanations on that score, but let's not go into details. The most important thing is that the elected president thus receives a very serious credit of trust. And now how he will act, what he will be able to undertake to change the situation, is hard to say.

I can confirm that we hear from Tbilisi different opinions about the future of relations with Russia. There are among them the calls for the speediest normalization on the basis of consideration of the lawful interests of both sides. But on the other hand, and this is regrettable, the almost-ultimatum demands connected with, say, the military bases... very nearly calls for organizing attacks. On that account we were forced to call the Georgian ambassador in Moscow, Mr. Abashidze, and tell him our bewilderment; such things need to be put a stop to. But I repeat, the inauguration is on the 25th of January. A new page will begin. This does not mean that we are discarding all that was in the past. But still, a new page in our relations. We very much hope that these relations will receive their logical, correct and natural development; that is, the strengthening of friendship and cooperation between Russia and Georgia.

"A few days ago the Russian Defense Minister, Sergey Ivanov, said a repetition of that disorderly withdrawal of troops which from Germany once was, when the people in the open fields right here, on the expanses of Russia, were left both with equipment and without housing, in the tents - that such a thing certainly won't happen again. And that we shall be withdrawing our contingent from the military bases in Georgia to the extent of our technical and economic possibilities. As far as I heard, the Americans will join in this process, they're offering us money in order to speed this process. Is that really so?"

Loshchinin: We are in negotiations on the so called military matters, including the question of the functioning of, and the deadlines for the withdrawal of the Russian bases from the territory of Georgia. This is the order of the day. Unfortunately, negotiations have not been held in the last few months, as the internal political situation in Georgia did not permit doing that. But we will resume them very soon, here it seems everything is clear. The Georgian side is saying: here's three years for you, and please withdraw. This is exactly what Sergey Borisovich Ivanov is talking about. To withdraw where, into the fields? The construction of accommodations is needed, there just can't be any question of tents, as then happened with the withdrawal from the GDR of our soldiers; it is necessary to build solid barracks, housing for officers, warrant officers and so on; that is to set up cantonments. This calls for enormous expenditures; as a matter of fact, hundreds of millions of dollars will need to be spent on it. All the more so as all those facilities are to be left in Georgia then. Thus, we have to negotiate. They are saying - three years; we are saying - it will take eleven years. And if financial assistance is required on the part of Western countries, our partners, we are ready to use this financial assistance, but it must be realistic in like manner. Therefore if the Americans are saying they are ready to pay the transport expenses, you can understand that against the background of the many hundreds of millions in required expenditure this is kopecks.

"Probably not all the listeners know that our present interlocutor, Valery Vasilyevich Loshchinin, is the official representative of Russia in the negotiations that are being conducted in connection with the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict. This is a very painful topic for Georgia, and well, a theme quite worrying the population of Abkhazia. Especially as very many residents of Abkhazia have acquired Russian citizenship recently. Now your forecast: how can the situation evolve?"

Loshchinin: The problem is which stands ahead - the cart or the horse. If there is to be insistence on defining the political status of Abkhazia in the negotiations between Georgia and Abkhazia right now, then this is certainly a dead-end line for the present, a dead-end position. Because the Abkhazians have declared their independence, and apparently they do not even want to discuss this theme. We consider that a return to the question of status can be made later on; that is when cooperation, trust and joint economic work are established, and after that, naturally, an interest will appear and there will be a wish to figure it out how and where we live, in what society and in what country after all. That's what, in particular, the Sochi agreements are all about, which Shevardnadze and Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin signed.

"When Mikhail Saakashvili, with a metallic voice, says that the inhabitants of Abkhazia and, in particular, the Georgians living in Abkhazia will necessarily participate in the next elections, with a metallic voice he says it, don't you fear some military action on the part of the new leadership of Georgia?"

Loshchinin: Military action already took place in the past. And you know what it all ended in. This is an absolutely hopeless option and entirely unacceptable not only to Russia, not only to Abkhazia, but also to Georgia itself, let alone the world community. The United Nations also concerns itself with this matter. There is such an institution, the Group of Friends of the Secretary General for Georgia. So yesterday MadameTagliavini, the UN Secretary General's Special Representative for the Georgian-Abkhaz conflict, was in Moscow, and we discussed the set of questions linked to this problem.

Listener: Hello, esteemed compatriots. The media has reported that the supply of natural gas has been discontinued from Russia to Belarus this year. To believe this information, what, is it so because Belarus does not allow Russian capitalists to break it and to privatize Belarusian property?

"Your information is wrong. As to relations economic and with regard to gas, I ask our interlocutor to comment."

Loshchinin: First, as regards economic relations. Trade with Belarus is expected to reach 13 billion dollars this year. This is only slightly less than our trade with the leading partner, Germany, and slightly in excess of trade with a significantly more powerful economic partner, which Ukraine is. Regarding gas, the problem is that up until now, unfortunately, an agreement has not been signed, a contract more precisely, for gas supplies in the year 2004. Precisely this topic to a certain extent is now being discussed by experts and specialists, including those of Gazprom. But we know that the problems will be settled here. The problem is the price, and this price has to be determined in the course of constructive talks with RAO Gazprom.

"A very important question, and there are many such questions, Mikhail Glukhikh on the Internet. When will the mechanisms be worked out for protecting the rights of the Russian and Russian-speaking population in the neighbor countries? Thanks. If possible please answer this question with the emphasis on the Baltic states. You know, big problems exist there."

Loshchinin: Now when? Hard to answer. Because this is a process and I think it will take many, many years. The main thing that this topic should not leave our agenda, and we are concerned with this problem in the most active way, and in the first place, naturally, regarding our compatriots in Latvia and Estonia.

"Russia has even joined in the Strasbourg Court."

Loshchinin: That's exactly what I want to say that an acute humanitarian situation is arising there. The fact is that one-third of the population there, well now slightly less - by and large are persons without citizenship, this meaning second-rate people, and they're our compatriots for the most part. They haven't got many political, and are deprived to a certain extent of economic rights as well. Accordingly we are conducting considerable work not only bilaterally, but also within the framework of international organizations. Now you have mentioned the Council of Europe; it's also the United Nations and the OSCE and the European Court of Human Rights, where individual cases are being examined relating to our citizens. We are very firmly defending the interests of our Great Patriotic War participants. Some of them are being prosecuted for purely political reasons, despite their advanced age.

"And retired army officers too."

Loshchinin: Yes, absolutely true.

Listener: Esteemed Yuly Alexandrovich and Valery Vasilyevich, my congratulations to you with all the past New Years and wishes of happiness and success. Please say how can it be explained that Russia in relations with the near abroad countries is giving in all along? That is, as if it felt most of all obliged to all and most of all guilty with regard to all? Thanks.

Loshchinin: I would not say that we are giving in. I want to say that any agreement is the result of a compromise and of very complex and difficult negotiations. Now, say, only recently a treaty on the Azov-Kerch water area was signed. This was the result of three years of negotiations, very substantive and thorough. And the very treaty is only two pages in itself, but now just these two pages hold a two-three year period of talks. There the interests of Russia are protected in full.

"We must destroy the Big Brother complex that our neighbors have, right? Take this example. Mr. Chubais, when in the course of the election campaign he put forward the formula 'liberal empire,' in my opinion, did you a lot of harm in your practical policy."

Loshchinin: I can't undertake to comment on the words of Anatoliy Borisovich. I can indeed say that there are no imperial ambitions and there is more and more of understanding with the strengthening of sovereignty; with the strengthening of our own national dignity all this trumpery is vanishing, it is disappearing. And we hope that in the future our relations will be proceeding only along the ascending line.

"Thank you very much indeed. I remind you that our interlocutor today in live broadcasting was State Secretary and First Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs Valery Loshchinin. Thanks to all who listened to us, who called us. Yuly Semyonov hosted the program. Good-bye."