Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov’s interview with the Libero, Italy, published on November 30, 2017
Question: What subjects do you intend to broach in you remarks at the Mediterranean forum?
Sergey Lavrov: I am glad to have an opportunity to once again attend the third international conference, Rome Mediterranean Dialogues 2017, sponsored by Italy’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs and International Cooperation and the Italian Institute for International Political Studies.
Owing to the organisers’ energetic efforts, the forum has asserted itself, within a brief period of time, as an authoritative and much-needed expert venue for discussing current international problems relating to the Mediterranean region.
Those taking part at the two previous meetings discussed Mediterranean security, settlement of crises and conflicts in the Middle East and Northern Africa, and counteraction to international terrorism. The discussions were interesting, substantial, and aimed at looking for effective solutions to a wide range of subjects.
Today, this region continues to face numerous challenges. What I mean in particular is the persisting political and socio-economic instability in a number of its countries, the terrorist threat, radicalisation of public moods, and an uncontrolled growth of migration flows.
I am planning to focus on these problems as well as on the Russian approaches to dealing with them. I intend to emphasise that Russia is prepared for constructive interaction with all responsible players in the interests of ensuring peace, stability and security in the Mediterranean. It is only by pooling our efforts that we will be able to achieve this.
Question: In his recent interview with Libero, the Russian Ambassador in Italy, Sergey Razov, stressed that the anti-Russian sanctions were inflicting great damage on the economies of Italy and other members of the EU. When, in your opinion, will Brussels abolish these suicidal restrictions?
Sergey Lavrov: In fact, the sanctions are damaging to Russia’s cooperation with the EU and its member countries. Incidentally, Italian Ambassador to Russia Cesare Maria Ragaglini, as far as I know, called attention to this very fact in his interview with Corriere della Sera in July of this year.
Today, it is clear that the sanctions, which the Brussels bureaucrats have built up on instructions from Washington, have boomeranged against the European national producers. They have lost a number of their positions on the Russian market and continue sustaining considerable losses. America, for its part, has suffered no damage, because our trade with them is miniscule. Thus, the US establishment wants to address its anti-Russian agenda at the expense of the Europeans and use Europeans to do their dirty work. I suggest that you think about this. Not so very long ago, I had a chance to talk to representatives of European companies working in my country. Their stance is unequivocal: the business community does not want restrictions and political interference in business life.
As for the fate of sanctions, this question, to be sure, should be addressed to Brussels, not Moscow. We hope that the EU structures will prove strong enough to renounce policy-making with regard to Russia based on the “least common denominator” principle and stop taking their cues from a small, if extremely aggressive, group of Russia haters inside the EU. For our part, we will promote cooperation at a pace for which our European partners are ready.
Question: Could the West defeat ISIS without the assistance of Russia’s Aerospace Forces?
Sergey Lavrov: From your question, Western readers might think that the West is fighting ISIS and that Russia is helping the West. The situation is different. The US-led coalition against ISIS was established without a UN Security Council mandate and is not coordinating its actions with Syria’s government, which is a violation of international law.
As for the effectiveness of its actions, it became clear by mid-2015 that it was unable to attain its proclaimed goals. ISIS was increasing the area of its caliphate, was creating pseudo-state organisations and was printing its own currency. ISIS controlled nearly 70 per cent of Syrian territory. Despite the coalition headquarters’ victorious statements, ISIS continued to spread its misanthropic ideology and to stage bloody intimidation attacks in the Middle East and North Africa, as well as beyond it.
Realising that the strengthening of ISIS and similar terrorist groups can have dramatic consequences, Russia decided to help the Syrian government fight the proliferation of the various types of terrorism regardless of their ethnic or religious nature.
Here are some facts to show what has been done to rout ISIS. Over the two years since the Russian Aerospace Forces launched operations in Syria, they have eliminated over 900 terrorist training camps, over 660 munitions plants and 1,500 items of military equipment. Some 1,000 cities and towns have been liberated.
At this point, over 95 per cent of Syrian territory has been cleansed of ISIS. Peaceful life is returning to the country: 1.12 million refugees and internally displaced persons have returned to their homes, including 660,000 in 2017. I would like to point out that our operation in Syria proceeded in strict compliance with international law.
In 2015, President Putin proposed creating a broad UN-led international coalition. Regrettably, our calls for joining forces against ISIS were disregarded. Only recently have our Western partners seen that collective efforts are needed to fight terrorism. A vital political event in this context was the joint statement on Syria the presidents of Russia and the United State made on the sidelines of the APEC summit in Da Nang on November 11. It confirmed their determination to defeat ISIS in Syria. Possibilities for developing interaction in the fight against terrorism were also discussed in a telephone conversation between President Putin and President Trump on November 21.
Question: Does Russia still hope to improve relations with the United States despite Russiagate and the Trump administration’s unfriendly actions?
Sergey Lavrov: The situation in our bilateral relations remains very complicated. The US establishment is sinking in Russia-hating sentiments, which have been provoked by some political forces that refuse to accept the results of last year’s presidential election in the United States.
It is difficult to say what consequences the current difficult stage [in bilateral relations] will have. The divergence of opinions in the United States has reached its highest level in decades, spreading from the political and economic spheres to the entire range of social issues.
It appears that the US administration has not yet developed a clear Russia policy. Just as during his election campaign, President Trump continues to say that he would like to normalise relations and to develop cooperation with Russia on current international issues. He has said this more than once during telephone conversations and meetings with President Putin, including at the APEC summit in Da Nang.
In practice, however, the actions of President Trump’s team could be described as inertial; they do not differ much from Obama’s policy. Moreover, acting at the prompting of the anti-Russia lobby, the administration has taken many unfriendly steps in many areas, such as the expansion of unilateral restrictions, the implementation of global BMD plans, the build-up of US and NATO military presence at Russian borders, as well as attempts to discredit Russia’s foreign policy.
Russia-hating hysterics in the United States have resulted in the adoption of the Countering America’s Adversaries Through Sanctions Act. In other unprecedented moves, the United States has shut down the Russian Consulate General in San Francisco and seized five Russian diplomatic properties.
At this point, we can hardly expect any positive US moves. The potential for cooperation in global and bilateral affairs remains largely unused because of the anti-Russia hysterics. Declaring Russia an adversary in legislation is an absurd and irresponsible move. We in Russia do not look at the United States from the same angle. On the contrary, we have always respected the American nation and its achievements.
In other words, we will continue to act pragmatically and will not seek confrontation. We believe that it is in the common interests of Russia and the United States to join efforts against terrorism, drug trafficking, WMD proliferation and organised crime. A coordination of efforts is vitally important to settle regional conflicts. As President Putin has said more than once, Russia is open to cooperation with the United States on all issues and is willing to cover its part of the way towards stabilising and improving relations, which have deteriorated in the past few years through no fault of ours. We hope that common sense will prevail in Washington’s corridors of power in the foreseeable future.
At the same time, we will continue to reply to unfriendly moves on the principle of reciprocity.
Question: Russia has successfully resolved problems linked with immigration from post-Soviet republics. What should the European Union and its member countries do to stem the tide of immigrants from North African countries which is supported by international organised crime?
Sergey Lavrov: The large-scale immigration crisis that has engulfed Europe is the direct consequence of a policy of “exporting” the state system, of meddling in the domestic affairs of sovereign states, primarily those in the Middle East and North Africa. These short-sighted actions weakened or demolished institutions of state authority, caused humanitarian disasters and an upsurge of terrorism and extremism. This provoked an all-out exodus of people from these regions.
Obviously, it is impossible to effectively solve Europe’s immigration problems without the elimination of their root causes. It is necessary to redouble efforts for resolving crises and conflicts, primarily those in Syria, Libya, Iraq and Yemen, by peaceful and political-diplomatic means. It is necessary to assist regional countries in either strengthening or restoring their statehood, conducting socioeconomic rehabilitation and putting them on the path of sustainable development. It is necessary to continue an uncompromising struggle against terrorism, as stipulated by the initiative of President Vladimir Putin to establish a broad anti-terrorist coalition under UN auspices that I have already mentioned.
Today, it is important to adequately monitor immigration flows and to rule out the possibility of terrorists penetrating European countries with people in need of real assistance. It is unacceptable to make refugees an object of political manipulations on the part of forces inciting ethnic, religious as well as social hatred. It is all the more unacceptable to use refugee camps for recruiting and training militants. At the same time, it is important to counter xenophobia, racism and intolerance towards immigrants themselves.
We are ready to continue cooperating with the EU in the area of immigration and to exchange experience in resolving immigration problems. We are interested in resuming contacts within the Russia-EU immigration dialogue as soon as possible. It goes without saying that we are ready to more actively cooperate with the EU while countering terrorism.
And, finally, we believe that countries that were actively involved in destabilising vast regions of the Middle East and North Africa should assume the greatest primary responsibility for assisting refugees and forced migrants. In this connection, we perceive the “sharing of responsibility” concept being advanced by a number of states as an attempt to shift the relevant burden on someone else’s shoulders.
Question: How would you describe the situation in southeastern Ukraine? Will Crimea always be part of Russia?
Sergey Lavrov: The situation in southeastern Ukraine remains complicated. The stability of the ceasefire cannot be ensured because of Kiev’s unwillingness to stop using military force to resolve the problem of Donbass.
The back to school truce announced by the Minsk Contact Group on August 25 and supported by the leaders of the four Normandy format states has helped reduce tension on the contact line but has not stopped the shelling altogether. OSCE SMM reports point to continued violations of the silence regime by the Ukrainian Armed Forces.
This is not surprising. President Poroshenko promised to redeploy missile and artillery units any time to use these systems, which are prohibited under the Minsk Agreements, against Donbass civilians. Ukrainian actions have supported his words. On the night of November 5, government forces used the Grad multiple-launch rocket systems to attack Donetsk suburbs.
Ukraine is not honouring the agreements on the disengagement of forces and the creation of three pilot areas on the contact line that were reached by the Normandy format leaders in Berlin in October 2016.
The Minsk Agreements clearly stipulate the sequence of actions and link military and political issues in one package. The settlement of these issues depends on consistency, if not exact timing. But consistency is not one of Kiev’s strong points. They continue to say that the political part of the Minsk II agreement cannot be implemented without the full silence regime in Donbass. They demand capitulation and disarmament from the self-defence forces. And they continue to demand the reinstatement of full control of the state border, although the Minsk Agreements place this in the final stage of the settlement.
At the same time, Kiev refuses to admit that a search for compromise through direct dialogue with Donbass is key to a settlement. This is the basic precept of the Minsk Agreements, to which there is no alternative. The issue concerns giving the southeastern regions special status and sealing it in the constitution, holding local elections, providing an amnesty and implementing true decentralisation. No settlement will be stable without this.
During a news conference following the BRICS summit in China in September 2017, President Putin proposed establishing a UN mission that would provide security for the OSCE mission in southeastern Ukraine. The idea is that the UN group would only ensure the security of the OSCE SMM staff on both sides of the contact line in the disengagement area, as well as the OSCE staff patrolling other regions of the conflict in keeping with its mandate under the Minsk Agreements. UN peacekeepers would be deployed in the conflict area after the disengagement of the sides’ weapons and personnel. The deployment of UN personnel would be coordinated with the authorities in Kiev, Donetsk and Lugansk. At the same time, the Minsk Agreements must remain the basis for the settlement, and the existing negotiating formats – the Minsk Contact Group and the Normandy format – must be preserved as well.
As for the second part of your question, this issue has been settled once and for all. I would like to point out that we are talking about the free and democratic expression of will by the Crimeans who made their choice in favour of peace and prosperity. This exercise of the right to self-determination was the only possible way to protect the vital interests of the people against the rising wave of nationalist radicalism which seized power in Ukraine in a state coup in February 2014. It is clear now that the will Crimeans expressed at their referendum protected them from the horrors of a civil war, which Kiev has been waging in Donbass for over three years.
Question: Is it right to say that President Vladimir Putin is creating a civilisational model in Russia which is based on traditional values, Christianity and the defence of the family, and which is an alternative to the globalist model that tends to erode people’s national identity?
Sergey Lavrov: Russia, which is historically built on the principles of a peaceful co-existence of cultures, faiths and ethnicities, is paying great attention to efforts to bring society together on the basis of eternal spiritual and moral values. We consider this as a major factor in securing the dynamic and sustainable development of the country and strengthening its position in international affairs. In so doing, we are not dictating our will to anybody, nor are we teaching others what to do. We respect the rights of other nations to choose political and socioeconomic models on their own.
We are concerned about the existing trend in a number of Western countries towards substituting universal human values with quasi-liberal ones and this not only within their national borders. There is no end to the attempts to aggressively export [these new values], which are being increasingly resisted by other nations seeking to preserve their lifestyles as well as their own national identity.
We believe that the solidarity of the global community should be based on traditional ideals shared by the world’s leading religions and cultures. Clearly, it is impossible to find effective solutions to numerous existing problems unless we strengthen the moral foundation of international life. We will further work to build relations between states on the principles of honesty, truth and justice.
Question: Russia is building a new multipolar world. What is your geopolitical concept?
Sergey Lavrov: First, I want to note that we are not building anything. The configuration of the international system is influenced by objective factors. Obviously, any attempts to build a world order or adjust it to suit someone’s interests are doomed to failure.
Recent events have clearly shown that the efforts of a small group of countries led by the United States to build a unipolar model of the world order, adapting the Cold War institutions to present-day realities, have failed. The world has not become either West-centric or safer and more stable. Old crises and conflicts remain unresolved while new challenges to security are emerging. The unprecedented upsurge in international terrorism still poses a serious threat.
Today we are speaking about the shaping of a fairer and more democratic polycentric or multipolar world order. It is an objective process that is associated with the emergence and strengthening of new economic and political “centres of power” in the Asia Pacific region, Latin America and Africa, who are seeking to pursue an independent foreign policy and are taking an active part in the development of international and regional agendas. The multipolarity encapsulates the diversity of cultural and historical traditions and political and economic systems, as well as the aspiration of nations to decide their fate on their own.
The attempts to slow down this tendency, reverse it and retain one’s dominant position may only lead to greater chaos and instability. It is in our common interests to make the process of shaping a new global architecture sustained and predictable. To make this happen we need to get back to the main principles of international life formulated in the Charter of the United Nations Organisation, including the sovereign equality of countries, non-interference in their internal affairs and the peaceful settlement of disputes.